Really enjoyed reading this...and the comments! As always thank you, the links were informative and fascinating. The whole nature and our experience of conversation is so subject to our understanding of what a conversation is. The natural nature and personality of the two people engaged, the emotional investment, or non-investment...and the cultural mechanics of a given language and cultural norms between participants are all in play. All of the things that are not said, but said by being not said. The subtle underlying things communicated with the voice, body language, eyes, hands. The length of time/space between words...the unsaid that sometimes is as loud and coherent as what’s being verbally spoken. Communication between humans is fascinating. Learning to listen, really listen is an art form that we hope comes with maturity, with wisdom...but actually we usually need someone pulling our coat to say, ‘...no really, you need to stop and really listen and this is how you do it.’ It’s important and the only way to truly understand what the other person is trying to communicate to you. Maturity and wisdom follow over time.
I know I have to practice this in my conversations more, even when the topic is not serious but lighthearted. Sometimes just curbing your enthusiasm and listening opens up information that you’re completely missing.
Great essay!.....and Mayo on pizza would never have crossed my mind🤦🏽♀️ trying to imagine......trying.......trying...
Exchange vs audience. That's it! Unfortunately many people I know just want to have an audience lol. But that's alright. Stoicism teaches us that anything outside our person really isn't in our control. A captive audience we can have is a journal. It turns into an exchange when we reread what we have written. Many times I've reread my entries and realize I'm really a dumbass on so many things. But I try to improve and battle on 🤠
#2) I love the adage "We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak”. Will totally be remembering that when I want to jump in while someone is speaking to me instead of just listening...totally guilty of being a middle child who frequently had to fight to be heard lol.
#3) My husband is purchasing the most amazing shirt that says Sway had the answer all along 🤣. Will have to find the link and send it your way!
Deaf so I use ASL, a tiny bit of Indian Sign, an even tinier bit of Australian Sign, and written English and written Punjabi. (No one can lipread. It is not a thing. If Deaf people say they can it’s because they already know they can ignore most of what is being said, they already can guess at most of what is being said, or they have more residual hearing than they are comfortable telling you.)
More importantly, mayo shouldn’t be on anything. This is a poverty remedy for head lice and I am still traumatized decades later. I hate the smell and the taste and I won’t even let my partners eat it around me.
Wow Gian so many languages! I took a semester of ASL a few years ago. I had an excellent instructor who made sure learning ASL was just as much about learning to sign as it was about learning about Deaf culture. I am grateful to that educator as his class helped me become more sensitive to in-the-world design. As in how do our surroundings/facilities or the programs/events we create serve both hearing and Deaf people, how can they be improved and how do they fall short. Ultimately, accessibility for all improves the experience for everyone. As a hearing person, I learned a lot. I just wished I had been able to continue learning the language.
In Japan I have witnessed a little of what I presume to be Japanese sign, but not frequently. Visibility of difference and disability are very low here. (That's a whole other ball of wax.) ASL, Japanese and Spanish would be the top three languages I would most desire to be fluent in if I could wave a magic wand and make it so.
I had no idea about the mayonnaise as lice treatment. I don't blame you for never wanting to be anywhere near mayo again. Welcome to Team Mayo Belongs Nowhere! If you ever visit Japan, please know there is plenty of pizza that has no mayonnaise anywhere. Nowhere. Nada. Zilch.
Mayo belongs with fries! I speak German and Hindi and because German is not my mother tongue and I learned it in my 20s I find myself listening more intently and looking for non verbal cues to supplement my understanding. It also makes me pause more often to formulate the sentences and speak and enunciate more clearly which I hope gives the listener more time to absorb what I'm saying as well.
I dunno Ruchika...I think the only time I can put mayo and potatoes together is for potato salad - and I don't even like potato salad. I am firmly on Team Mayo Belongs Nowhere. 😁.
Because you have to be more attentive when speaking German, would you say you listen best in German? 🤔
I love The Piano. I love love the Piano. I can pretty much pause at any point in time in the movie and the scene is a guaranteed computer background. So scenic. And Michael Nyman's The Heart Asks Pleasure First and The Promise are pieces that prompted me to listen to more classical piano music.
Before I thought about and typed this comment, I had to review Thich Nhat Hanh's interview with Oprah (available on YouTube) that taught me to always remember my breathing in moments of anger. Plus, deep, active, compassionate listening. It involves only sharing your presence to the conversation. Just that. And the rest is listening and empathizing to the listener. Any comments must be reserved for another time or day.
Before that, I used to nod and listen and turn the conversation to myself. I reply with stories related to the topic at hand, of course. Still, it robs the speaker of their moment to let out frustration.
I also remember a Parks and Recreation episode when a pregnant Ann Perkins (Rashida Jones) kept venting on her husband Chris (Rob Lowe) about the stresses of pregnancy. Chris tried to solve everything which Anne didn't like. Finally, their friends intervened, telling Chris the moment Ann complained about anything pregnancy-concerned again, all he had to do was say two things: "That sucks" and no more!
I wanted to wait to reply until I could watch the Oprah and Thich Nhat Hanh's interview. And I am so very glad I did. Thank you for directing my attention to it. To paraphrase some of what he said deep compassionate listening is the kind of listening that can help relieve the suffering of the person we are listening to. We can share advice, if we want to later. But for the time being. Just listen.
This whole interview was so important for me to watch. I know who Hanh is of course but I had only read maybe a quote or two of his at most - but never a whole book, never a whole interview and I felt so soothed just listening to his voice. And so heartened by his perspective and practice. Thank you for giving this to me.
I struggle sometimes with listening to people who seem to talk without awareness that I am listening. When I feel like their need to talk is to have an audience, not an exchange, and it doesn't really matter if I am there or not. And it's then that I think it's good to pay a therapist - someone whose job is to listen to you - but then I suppose all listening can be service work - you just have to decide whom or what or when you listen...Hmmm have to think about this more.
Re The Piano, I liked the movie very much when I first saw it years ago, bought the DVD and the soundtrack, because I live for movie scores - soundtracks yes, but scores I love especially. I rewatched it again (distractedly) recently after Champion was back in the news and all of it didn't hold up for me in the same way. I need to watch it again, so I can understand exactly what I mean.
Mayo does not belong on pizza. Not even if it’s fancy truffle infused.
I love language and I love foreign films - I always take time off work to check out as many films as I can during our annual international film festival.
I have dabbled with French (taken at school) and learned a bit of Russian as an adult. Also have a basic knowledge of our native language in New Zealand/Aotearoa: te reo Māori. (Loved your reference to The Piano!)
I’m probably most proficient with Japanese, can read at a basic level - but zero writing skills 😞 and get absolutely melted-brain trying to remember my words trying to speak.
I love foreign films too! I was just talking with a friend about going to Art House and indie theaters back in the day with no plan to see a particular film and instead buying a ticket for whatever was on offer at the time convenient for me. I got to see a lot of great films that way. This was a long time ago, as two films that popped to mind are "Run, Lola, Run" and "Aemelie."
I envy your knowledge of multiple languages! I think its such a great gift to have and skill to master! I get melted - brain trying to speak English sometimes and that's my native and only language. I think that's why I prefer writing 😁
Loved this. During my first stint in Japan (1992-1993!) I carried around a small pocket notebook so I could jot down new vocab. I collected stacks of these....
Do you still have those? I cannot even imagine what it was like pre-Google translate in the 90s. But I think we retain more when we write stuff down as opposed to typing it into our devices.
I see you're in Japan too. One of my favorite Japan based newsletter writers is (that's not on Substack) is Craig Mod. He writes 3 actually about living and walking Japan. And I'm fairly certain he was here pre-google translate too. Here's a link to one of his newsletters: https://craigmod.com/ridgeline/047/
Actually, I'm in NorCal! But I do write about Japan now and again. I will have to dig through some storage bins to see if I've kept any notebooks. They'd be of the Kokuyo fits-in-a-pocket variety.
After 2 years of college German more than 50 years ago, I can almost converse with a native, but I do a lot of "Was ist den das?" (What is that?) I've lived in Texas long enough to know a few Spanish words, mainly of the edible variety. Your observations in this piece are actually profound, and a good lesson for most of us, myself included. As for pizza, I can ALMOST forgive something like pineapple on it, but mayonnaise is a crime against nature, and is unforgivable. From a cultural standpoint I could understand (but never eat) wasabi on pizza, but mayo is just plain wrong.
Thank you Jim! I love that "Was ist den das?" looks like its English translation. It's also such a helpful phrase to learn in any language. In Japanese it's "kore wa nan desu ka?" and I use it all the time. Especially while grocery shopping! And the person who answers my question is either bilingual and can tell me in English or that person and I stumble slowly through to an understanding together in a mix of poor English and poor Japanese.
Re the mayo - you are right on all points! Though I will say Japanese mayo is ever so slightly different that American mayo. But it doesn't matter as it should never be on pizza in the first place... but I could be convinced to try wasabi on pizza 🤔
Oh, I love the little toddlers phone! How funny and sweeet! This was a great essay. I speak a little Spanish. It's funny, I took one year of spanish in late jr. hjigh or early high school, and learned GREAT pronunciation. I can look at spanish and sound fluent. but i know so little. In one funny incident, one of hte kids I tutor was placed in an advanced spanish lit class. Well, he speaks Spanish, but doesn't read it. So, for his essay on a short story, he brought it home, I read it aloud, he translated it back to me and we both worked on the essay. How's that for weird?
Also, the active listening...I nod my head an uhum a great dal. some americans find it annoying not to be totally silent while listening but i want to show i am hearing.. I try to be a good listener, but the research I have read shows men and women communicate differently and that men prefer brutal directtness (my interp) from speakers and silence from listerners. (this came from a great article about communication in the Utne Reader a few years ago.) I've tried with some success to do that and it seems to work most of the time. How confusing language and listening can be! thanks for a great essay.
I also have taken Spanish classes in Jr. and HS - and the only time I got really good at it was when I spent time a lot of time with Spanish speaking friends. My español accent is pretty good because I grew up hearing so much of it in NY. Interestingly enough, I learned that Spanish and Japanese share similar speech sounds, so if you speak Spanish, chances are your Japanese pronunciation would be quite good.
The way the little boy you tutor understands Spanish is how I want to learn Japanese. TBH I just want to be able to speak and understand it, I'm quite okay with not being able to read or write it! The Japanese language has three different alphabets — hiragana, katakana and kanji! It's one of the reasons I've been dragging my feet going back to language class!
I'll look up that Utne article - I swear I forgot about Utne! And yes that toddler gets me every time! So so so cute!
Interesting linguistic observations. I read and speak French, which doesn't seem that different. I've listened to a lot of conversations in Brazilian Portuguese and Mandarin during the past couple of years, which I don't read or speak, and the conversation dynamics are very different.
Whenever folks do one of those ice-breaking exercises and asks what your desired super power would be. My answer is always the same, to be able to understand and speak any language. I guess I want to be Lieutenant Uhura on Star Trek. Language is such a fascinating insight into other cultures even when we don't share the language. I think writers are lucky in that so much of what we try to do is informed by observing, and listening is for sure a form of observation. Thanks Mark!
Really enjoyed reading this...and the comments! As always thank you, the links were informative and fascinating. The whole nature and our experience of conversation is so subject to our understanding of what a conversation is. The natural nature and personality of the two people engaged, the emotional investment, or non-investment...and the cultural mechanics of a given language and cultural norms between participants are all in play. All of the things that are not said, but said by being not said. The subtle underlying things communicated with the voice, body language, eyes, hands. The length of time/space between words...the unsaid that sometimes is as loud and coherent as what’s being verbally spoken. Communication between humans is fascinating. Learning to listen, really listen is an art form that we hope comes with maturity, with wisdom...but actually we usually need someone pulling our coat to say, ‘...no really, you need to stop and really listen and this is how you do it.’ It’s important and the only way to truly understand what the other person is trying to communicate to you. Maturity and wisdom follow over time.
I know I have to practice this in my conversations more, even when the topic is not serious but lighthearted. Sometimes just curbing your enthusiasm and listening opens up information that you’re completely missing.
Great essay!.....and Mayo on pizza would never have crossed my mind🤦🏽♀️ trying to imagine......trying.......trying...
Exchange vs audience. That's it! Unfortunately many people I know just want to have an audience lol. But that's alright. Stoicism teaches us that anything outside our person really isn't in our control. A captive audience we can have is a journal. It turns into an exchange when we reread what we have written. Many times I've reread my entries and realize I'm really a dumbass on so many things. But I try to improve and battle on 🤠
Battle on my friend!
#1) I do NOT believe mayo belongs on pizza.
#2) I love the adage "We have two ears and one mouth so that we can listen twice as much as we speak”. Will totally be remembering that when I want to jump in while someone is speaking to me instead of just listening...totally guilty of being a middle child who frequently had to fight to be heard lol.
#3) My husband is purchasing the most amazing shirt that says Sway had the answer all along 🤣. Will have to find the link and send it your way!
Please please send the link to that shirt my way. I’ve been saying “How Sway?!!!” For a decade. 😂
https://thedirtlabel.com/products/sway-tee-limited-edition
Hope you get your hands on one! 😂
Thanks! Found another:
https://www.mixunit.com/p/1377333-sway-had-the-answer-mens-t-shirt
Actually listening without thinking of what to say next is so relaxing. I should do it more!
you and me both Anne 😊
Deaf so I use ASL, a tiny bit of Indian Sign, an even tinier bit of Australian Sign, and written English and written Punjabi. (No one can lipread. It is not a thing. If Deaf people say they can it’s because they already know they can ignore most of what is being said, they already can guess at most of what is being said, or they have more residual hearing than they are comfortable telling you.)
More importantly, mayo shouldn’t be on anything. This is a poverty remedy for head lice and I am still traumatized decades later. I hate the smell and the taste and I won’t even let my partners eat it around me.
Wow Gian so many languages! I took a semester of ASL a few years ago. I had an excellent instructor who made sure learning ASL was just as much about learning to sign as it was about learning about Deaf culture. I am grateful to that educator as his class helped me become more sensitive to in-the-world design. As in how do our surroundings/facilities or the programs/events we create serve both hearing and Deaf people, how can they be improved and how do they fall short. Ultimately, accessibility for all improves the experience for everyone. As a hearing person, I learned a lot. I just wished I had been able to continue learning the language.
In Japan I have witnessed a little of what I presume to be Japanese sign, but not frequently. Visibility of difference and disability are very low here. (That's a whole other ball of wax.) ASL, Japanese and Spanish would be the top three languages I would most desire to be fluent in if I could wave a magic wand and make it so.
I had no idea about the mayonnaise as lice treatment. I don't blame you for never wanting to be anywhere near mayo again. Welcome to Team Mayo Belongs Nowhere! If you ever visit Japan, please know there is plenty of pizza that has no mayonnaise anywhere. Nowhere. Nada. Zilch.
Mayo belongs with fries! I speak German and Hindi and because German is not my mother tongue and I learned it in my 20s I find myself listening more intently and looking for non verbal cues to supplement my understanding. It also makes me pause more often to formulate the sentences and speak and enunciate more clearly which I hope gives the listener more time to absorb what I'm saying as well.
I dunno Ruchika...I think the only time I can put mayo and potatoes together is for potato salad - and I don't even like potato salad. I am firmly on Team Mayo Belongs Nowhere. 😁.
Because you have to be more attentive when speaking German, would you say you listen best in German? 🤔
I need to read the latest Kazoo issue! And thanks for resurfacing the video of the toddler showing us how aizuchi is done. So cuuuuute!
Srsly, Kazoo is such a good magazine! And no, that kid could not be any cuter!
I love The Piano. I love love the Piano. I can pretty much pause at any point in time in the movie and the scene is a guaranteed computer background. So scenic. And Michael Nyman's The Heart Asks Pleasure First and The Promise are pieces that prompted me to listen to more classical piano music.
Before I thought about and typed this comment, I had to review Thich Nhat Hanh's interview with Oprah (available on YouTube) that taught me to always remember my breathing in moments of anger. Plus, deep, active, compassionate listening. It involves only sharing your presence to the conversation. Just that. And the rest is listening and empathizing to the listener. Any comments must be reserved for another time or day.
Before that, I used to nod and listen and turn the conversation to myself. I reply with stories related to the topic at hand, of course. Still, it robs the speaker of their moment to let out frustration.
I also remember a Parks and Recreation episode when a pregnant Ann Perkins (Rashida Jones) kept venting on her husband Chris (Rob Lowe) about the stresses of pregnancy. Chris tried to solve everything which Anne didn't like. Finally, their friends intervened, telling Chris the moment Ann complained about anything pregnancy-concerned again, all he had to do was say two things: "That sucks" and no more!
I wanted to wait to reply until I could watch the Oprah and Thich Nhat Hanh's interview. And I am so very glad I did. Thank you for directing my attention to it. To paraphrase some of what he said deep compassionate listening is the kind of listening that can help relieve the suffering of the person we are listening to. We can share advice, if we want to later. But for the time being. Just listen.
This whole interview was so important for me to watch. I know who Hanh is of course but I had only read maybe a quote or two of his at most - but never a whole book, never a whole interview and I felt so soothed just listening to his voice. And so heartened by his perspective and practice. Thank you for giving this to me.
I struggle sometimes with listening to people who seem to talk without awareness that I am listening. When I feel like their need to talk is to have an audience, not an exchange, and it doesn't really matter if I am there or not. And it's then that I think it's good to pay a therapist - someone whose job is to listen to you - but then I suppose all listening can be service work - you just have to decide whom or what or when you listen...Hmmm have to think about this more.
(In case anyone want to check out the interview it is here: https://youtu.be/tVr5ala7xZg)
Re The Piano, I liked the movie very much when I first saw it years ago, bought the DVD and the soundtrack, because I live for movie scores - soundtracks yes, but scores I love especially. I rewatched it again (distractedly) recently after Champion was back in the news and all of it didn't hold up for me in the same way. I need to watch it again, so I can understand exactly what I mean.
Mayo does not belong on pizza. Not even if it’s fancy truffle infused.
I love language and I love foreign films - I always take time off work to check out as many films as I can during our annual international film festival.
I have dabbled with French (taken at school) and learned a bit of Russian as an adult. Also have a basic knowledge of our native language in New Zealand/Aotearoa: te reo Māori. (Loved your reference to The Piano!)
I’m probably most proficient with Japanese, can read at a basic level - but zero writing skills 😞 and get absolutely melted-brain trying to remember my words trying to speak.
I love foreign films too! I was just talking with a friend about going to Art House and indie theaters back in the day with no plan to see a particular film and instead buying a ticket for whatever was on offer at the time convenient for me. I got to see a lot of great films that way. This was a long time ago, as two films that popped to mind are "Run, Lola, Run" and "Aemelie."
I envy your knowledge of multiple languages! I think its such a great gift to have and skill to master! I get melted - brain trying to speak English sometimes and that's my native and only language. I think that's why I prefer writing 😁
Loved this. During my first stint in Japan (1992-1993!) I carried around a small pocket notebook so I could jot down new vocab. I collected stacks of these....
Do you still have those? I cannot even imagine what it was like pre-Google translate in the 90s. But I think we retain more when we write stuff down as opposed to typing it into our devices.
I see you're in Japan too. One of my favorite Japan based newsletter writers is (that's not on Substack) is Craig Mod. He writes 3 actually about living and walking Japan. And I'm fairly certain he was here pre-google translate too. Here's a link to one of his newsletters: https://craigmod.com/ridgeline/047/
Actually, I'm in NorCal! But I do write about Japan now and again. I will have to dig through some storage bins to see if I've kept any notebooks. They'd be of the Kokuyo fits-in-a-pocket variety.
I used to live in the Bay Area! Love NorCal! And when it comes to stationary, notebooks etc, Japan gets the gold.
Also, mayo does not belong on pizza
It. Just. Doesn't.
After 2 years of college German more than 50 years ago, I can almost converse with a native, but I do a lot of "Was ist den das?" (What is that?) I've lived in Texas long enough to know a few Spanish words, mainly of the edible variety. Your observations in this piece are actually profound, and a good lesson for most of us, myself included. As for pizza, I can ALMOST forgive something like pineapple on it, but mayonnaise is a crime against nature, and is unforgivable. From a cultural standpoint I could understand (but never eat) wasabi on pizza, but mayo is just plain wrong.
Thank you Jim! I love that "Was ist den das?" looks like its English translation. It's also such a helpful phrase to learn in any language. In Japanese it's "kore wa nan desu ka?" and I use it all the time. Especially while grocery shopping! And the person who answers my question is either bilingual and can tell me in English or that person and I stumble slowly through to an understanding together in a mix of poor English and poor Japanese.
Re the mayo - you are right on all points! Though I will say Japanese mayo is ever so slightly different that American mayo. But it doesn't matter as it should never be on pizza in the first place... but I could be convinced to try wasabi on pizza 🤔
Oh, I love the little toddlers phone! How funny and sweeet! This was a great essay. I speak a little Spanish. It's funny, I took one year of spanish in late jr. hjigh or early high school, and learned GREAT pronunciation. I can look at spanish and sound fluent. but i know so little. In one funny incident, one of hte kids I tutor was placed in an advanced spanish lit class. Well, he speaks Spanish, but doesn't read it. So, for his essay on a short story, he brought it home, I read it aloud, he translated it back to me and we both worked on the essay. How's that for weird?
Also, the active listening...I nod my head an uhum a great dal. some americans find it annoying not to be totally silent while listening but i want to show i am hearing.. I try to be a good listener, but the research I have read shows men and women communicate differently and that men prefer brutal directtness (my interp) from speakers and silence from listerners. (this came from a great article about communication in the Utne Reader a few years ago.) I've tried with some success to do that and it seems to work most of the time. How confusing language and listening can be! thanks for a great essay.
I also have taken Spanish classes in Jr. and HS - and the only time I got really good at it was when I spent time a lot of time with Spanish speaking friends. My español accent is pretty good because I grew up hearing so much of it in NY. Interestingly enough, I learned that Spanish and Japanese share similar speech sounds, so if you speak Spanish, chances are your Japanese pronunciation would be quite good.
The way the little boy you tutor understands Spanish is how I want to learn Japanese. TBH I just want to be able to speak and understand it, I'm quite okay with not being able to read or write it! The Japanese language has three different alphabets — hiragana, katakana and kanji! It's one of the reasons I've been dragging my feet going back to language class!
I'll look up that Utne article - I swear I forgot about Utne! And yes that toddler gets me every time! So so so cute!
Mayo belongs nowhere.
I concur Nadege, I concur!
Interesting linguistic observations. I read and speak French, which doesn't seem that different. I've listened to a lot of conversations in Brazilian Portuguese and Mandarin during the past couple of years, which I don't read or speak, and the conversation dynamics are very different.
Whenever folks do one of those ice-breaking exercises and asks what your desired super power would be. My answer is always the same, to be able to understand and speak any language. I guess I want to be Lieutenant Uhura on Star Trek. Language is such a fascinating insight into other cultures even when we don't share the language. I think writers are lucky in that so much of what we try to do is informed by observing, and listening is for sure a form of observation. Thanks Mark!